'In Defense of Virology' featuring Simon Wain-Hobson (Episode 4: Clean Out the Freezers)

In the fourth episode of In Defense of Virology, Rutgers Professor and Science From the Fringe host Bryce Nickels and distinguished virologist Simon Wain-Hobson argue that labs should destroy frozen stocks of dangerous, nonessential pathogens produced through gain-of-function research or historical resurrection—simple to do, high-impact for reducing global risk.

Simon highlights precedent—from post-eradication smallpox and rinderpest—and cites a recent Newcastle disease virus re-emergence in China strongly suggestive of a freezer escape. Given that even top labs leak, he argues, destruction of unnecessary stocks is common-sense risk reduction.

The episode concludes with an overlooked puzzle: despite SARS-CoV-2’s devastating impact, fewer than 100 related genomes have been disclosed, compared to more than 240 for SARS-1. Whether due to undersampling or undisclosed sequences, Simon contends the gap is a public-health failure—surveillance is essential, but must not be confused with the risky manipulation that helped create today’s biosafety crisis. Virology must decide between continued high-risk work and responsibly “cleaning house.”

(Recorded November 22, 2025)

Timestamps00:31 — Welcome and introduction02:44 — Simon discusses destroying unnecessary dangerous stocks07:17 — Newcastle disease “extinct” genotype re-emergence (Nov 2025 paper)14:18 — Historical precedent: smallpox & rinderpest stock destruction20:14 — COVID origins: the shocking absence of close SARS-CoV-2 relatives25:10 — Why the dearth of sequences is biologically inexplicable27:26 — The delayed release of the sequence of RaTG1330:41 — Simon suggests the lack of sequences of close SARS-CoV-2 relatives is because they are “too hot to handle”33:47 — Simon argues for the importance of SARS-CoV-2 relatives34:46 — “Leave them in nature” objection rebutted by Simon38:48 — Risky research has delivered zero public-health benefit41:30 — How Peter Daszak “muddied the waters”43:50 — Closing remarks

intro and outro by Tess Parks

Click here to read Simon’s collection of essays on Biosafety Now’s Substack page.

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